The Dirty Secret About Amicable Divorce (That No One Wants to Admit)

OVERVIEW

In this conversation, Erin Levine discusses the adversarial nature of the traditional legal system, particularly in the context of divorce and family law. She highlights how the language and processes involved in legal documents can create conflict and position individuals as opponents, often leading to emotional distress and financial burdens.

HIGHLIGHTS

• The traditional legal system is adversarial by design.
• Legal documents often frame individuals as opponents.
• The process of divorce can be emotionally triggering.
• Conflict is profitable for the legal system.
• The language used in legal documents can escalate tensions.
• Process servers can create distressing situations for families.
• Every motion and delay in the legal process incurs costs.
• The system is structured to benefit from conflict rather than resolution.
• Good intentions can lead to messy outcomes in legal disputes.
• Understanding the system can help individuals navigate it better.

TRANSCRIPT

Devon: On today’s DivorceLawyer.com podcast, have Erin Levine, founder and CEO of Hello Divorce. Erin Levine is a lawyer turned legal innovator and the founder of Hello Divorce. HelloDivorce.com, an award-winning online platform that’s changing people’s experience of how they divorce. A certified family law specialist and longtime attorney, Erin saw firsthand how the system often made things harder and set out to build something better.

Through Hello Divorce, she’s helped thousands of people navigate divorce with clarity, confidence, and peace of mind. Her work has been recognized by the American Bar Association, Duke’s Law Legal Tech Accelerator, TechCrunch, Forbes, and Fast Company, which named Hello Divorce one of the most innovative companies in social impact.

Good morning, Erin.

Erin: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Devon: It’s great to have you here. So we’ve all seen that smiling couples and conscious uncoupling headlines, but the truth is, let me start that over.

Today’s topic is the dirty secret about amicable divorce that no one wants to admit. We’ve all seen the smiling couples, the conscious uncoupling headlines. The truth is amicable doesn’t mean easy and it definitely doesn’t mean you agree on everything from the start. After helping over 15,000 couples navigate divorce without court, Erin has learned the real piece takes structure, transparency and accountability, not just good vibes. In this episode, we can unpack what a truly amicable divorce looks like. It’s still grueling. Why the system often sets us up to fail and how to protect your sanity, savings and kids in the process. It’s raw. It’s relatable. And Erin thinks it will change how listeners think about divorce, whether they’re in it, avoiding it or just trying to do it better.

So let’s just jump into it. What do you, what do we and what do you mean by that?

Erin: Well, I think when most people think of that conscious uncoupling that Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin had now over a decade ago with smiles and hugs and maybe a high five outside the courthouse. And while there certainly are divorces where the couples become best friends or maybe really truly both wanted the divorce and can evolve into something different, the vast majority of us don’t have a divorce like that.

And the problem with portraying an amicable or an out of court divorce like that is that it makes people think they fall into one of two categories, either the perfect super evolved divorce or the lawyer up in fight, never ending, wildly expensive, messy divorce.

Devon: Do you find that most people will approach an attorney trying to label what they feel is an amicable divorce or does the attorney more take the lead for how they feel it’s going to go based upon what their prospect tells them?

Erin: In my experience, and you were very kind to say that I had been a divorce lawyer for a long time, I’ve actually been doing it 20 years, which is sometimes really hard to admit. In my experience, both as a divorce lawyer and as the founder and CEO of Hello Divorce, most people don’t want a long, messy, wildly expensive divorce. Most people come to us with the hope that they can do this quietly and kindly and not spend their entire life savings on divorce.

The problem is, that the system in many ways sets us up to fight and that many lawyers, so this is why it’s so important to choose the right lawyer that you work with, prove their value by winning. It’s not that they necessarily want it to be a knockout, drag out fight. It’s that we are taught as lawyers that the better the result, the better that we do in court, the more fights that we win, the better and happier the client will feel.

Devon: A very interesting point, scary point. So you’ve helped over 15,000 couples divorce without going to court. When people say amicable divorce, what do they think it means versus what it really looks like?

Erin: Yeah, I think they think amicable divorce means conflict free. And the way I like to think about it is this conflict managed, right? For most people, most people, actually, I can’t remember the last divorce I saw and we see thousands on our platform where there wasn’t some element of conflict. In fact, most people come into their divorce not knowing if they’ll be able to reach an agreement at all. And yet you can still label your divorce amicable if the goal is to stay out of court.

If the goal is to work either together or with settlement-minded lawyers or with a mediator to try to come to a resolution that doesn’t burn it all down.

So I think the biggest myth is that amicable means effortless and that if it somehow gets hard, you’ve failed. But in reality, amicable divorce is often the hardest emotional work you’ll ever do because you’re grieving, you’re learning, you’re making these big life changing decisions and you’re negotiating with the same person who may have broken your heart.

But it is so important that we think about having an amicable or an out of court divorce. And I know understand it doesn’t work for everyone, although I do believe it works for most because we are setting ourselves up through divorce for a solid foundation for our next chapter. And if we’re thinking about everything that went wrong in our relationship and all the ways we can get back at our spouse, versus how can we best set ourselves up and our kids for our next chapter, then we’re doing ourselves and our families a huge disservice.

Devon: That’s a huge point. yeah, human nature is to take the path of least resistance. So when seeing a word like amicable, it’s like, sure, I’d like to head in that direction and I will choose that, but that’s not really what it’s about on its face, certainly.

Erin: We know we have to remind ourselves that amicable doesn’t mean you don’t fight. We’ve got to rebrand amicable.

We have to rebrand amicable into a word that’s it doesn’t mean you don’t fight. It means you know when to stop. It means that you have your priorities in check. It means that you have determined what your most important goals are, your must haves, your needs to have. And you let a lot of the other stuff go so that you can have your divorce be three months or six months or nine months instead of years and cost a few thousand dollars instead of your entire life savings.

Devon: What I really appreciate about that is that we have dozens of people on our podcast every single month and their main goal is to promote their business, which is important. But what you’re actually doing, and I know you and I know your reputation is actually, is really asking somebody to ask the important questions, be introspective and sort of let them know where this can all go if they ask the right questions to begin with. Very, very valuable stuff. Sorry.

Erin: Yeah, I want, sorry, didn’t mean to interrupt. Yeah, I want people to take a step back before they start the divorce because what I’ve seen and what I saw a lot of in my law practice is that as everybody knows, divorce brings up so much emotion. And if we lead our divorce with that emotion, that overwhelm, that fear, that anger, the grief, and we make choices from a place of anger or resentment or fear, those are not going to be good choices for our lives, right? Nothing good ever comes from making choices from a place of fear instead of self-knowingness.

So what I want people to think about and one of the big reasons why I say, let’s talk about amicable, let’s talk about what divorce can look like, because I don’t want people to just hand their divorce over to one of us, one of our professionals and say, have a good time. It is so important to think about what it is that we want out of this. And there are different ways to do it. It doesn’t just have to be hire the most aggressive lawyer and see what happens kind of a thing.

Devon: So to that end, what would you say is the biggest myth you’d love to bust about amicable divorce right off the bat? Is there something that jumps out at you?

Erin: I think the biggest myth is that it’s effort, you know, that amicable divorce means effortless. And it’s going to be challenging. It is going to be really, really hard. You are navigating out of a relationship that is probably years, if not decades long, and that’s not going to happen every night. And this, excuse me, that’s not going to happen overnight.

Devon: And you’ve said amicable divorce doesn’t mean easy several times. Can you share a story or is there an example that captures how emotionally grueling it can still be?

Erin: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we do a lot on our platform is mediation. So I’m sure you will have or have had a mediator or lawyer mediator on your platform, on your podcast, but a mediator is a neutral third party, often a lawyer, but not always, who helps couples untangle their marriage and their finances and all of that kind of stuff so that they can come to an agreement and move on.

I was mediating a divorce where one couple came in and they thought they were totally aligned. They came in and they agreed on parenting. They knew they were going to share parenting. They knew what the schedule would look like. They even knew who would pick up for extracurricular activities and who would go to like the baseball tournaments and who would even bring the snacks. They knew what they would do with the house. And the one thing they didn’t talk about were the retirement accounts. And suddenly it wasn’t just about numbers. it became about years of resentment. So he felt that he had earned every single dollar and that that was his. And he was willing to share something, but he definitely didn’t think it should be split. And she felt that she would sacrifice, she had sacrificed her career so that he could have his and that she, regardless of what the law says, they were in a community property state. So it’s divided 50-50.

They can’t come to an agreement. And I think they both knew that. And yet the mediation took a turn where the entire focus became about resentment and anger and a lot of feelings instead of the actual numbers. Like they both wanted to be heard. So we had to really slow it down and clarify, of course, what’s actually marital property and help them see what post-divorce life would look like financially. But we couldn’t do that until we addressed the fear and the anger head on. And they still disagreed. But they left with an agreement that felt reasonable.

And that’s the thing about amicable divorce, right? It’s not the absence of conflict. There will be conflict. It’s the ability to come back to the table after conflict and get it done.

Devon: You’ve mentioned that the system sets couples up to fail. What do you mean by that? And how does the traditional divorce process make amicably harder?

Erin: I want people to really listen to this piece because it took me decades to truly understand.

I don’t care how well intentioned your divorce lawyer is. The system sets us up to fight and we have to fight in our own way tooth and nail to keep from, you know, making this a super messy divorce. So the traditional system is adversarial by design, even when you and your spouse aren’t. So if you’ve ever seen the movie, The Marriage Story, those two people came in with good intentions. Their goal was not to ramp things up and make it messy. But if you’ve seen it, you know that’s exactly what happened.

The first document that you file in almost every state says spouse A versus spouse B right there. You’re looking at the document and there’s a versus, right? There’s, sets this up to think about this as a fight on that same document. It says you are being sued. And at the same time, you are receiving these documents by virtue of usually it’s a random stranger process server who shows up at your work or at your home in front of your kids and you are immediately positioned as opponents. You’re immediately triggered. It’s like that fight or flight feeling, right? Then on top of that, every motion, every delay, every email, it’s all billable and the system, it profits from conflict.

So you’ve got this language, like you’ve been served X versus Y, opposing counsel, and that keeps you in fight mode. I think most families today, they don’t want to destroy each other. They want to clarify, they want closure, they want to protect their kids. But the process, everything from the language to how we assert our rights, it pushes people towards war.

Devon: I’m going to go out on a limb here and just say that of all the podcasts that we have ever done that by far was just the greatest gem for those listening. It really, really sets a tone from the very beginning that puts someone back on their heels. And so again, I hope people are really listening to that.

Erin: Thank you.

Devon: A huge jump. Thank you for that.

Erin: Thank you so much. And I don’t want people to think I’m anti-lawyer. Like I am a lawyer. I have lawyers on our platform. I clearly, you know, love speaking with you and I wanted to be on this podcast. Lawyers are very important to the process, but it’s also really important for us to understand the mindset of most lawyers and how it might differ with your goals and what you want to see happen and come out of this divorce experience because you have so much more control than you think you do.

Devon: After all the couples you’ve helped, the thousands of couples you’ve helped, what is the one thing you wish that every divorcing person knew before they started the process? And you may have just answered that question.

Erin: Well, yes, but I think it’s important to remind people that it’s okay to slow down. You might feel a lot of pressure. Usually what happens is you have one spouse who feels like it’s moving too slow and the other spouse who is on the steep learning curve because they’re maybe looking at finances for the first time in, you decades and they feel like it’s moving too fast. But if you are that person who either feels like it’s moving too fast for whatever reason, it’s okay to slow down. Your nervous system is going to tell you that every email, every document, every message is a five alarms fire. It will. And if you’ve know anyone who’s been divorced and they’ve been through this process, you know exactly what I’m talking about because you get that text from a friend that says, he said this or she said that. What do I do? my gosh, it’s the end of the world. That is so normal.

That is 100 % normal. It feels awful. Your entire livelihood feels like it’s at stake. And to a large extent, a lot of things are. So I want to remind you, you have time to make smart strategic decisions. First, you need to get clear on your goals and know your top three priorities. What matters most to you and what you’re willing to compromise on. The other thing I will say, and I know you asked for one thing, but I’m going to give you one more, which is get a basic understanding of your state’s laws before you even talk to a lawyer or before, yeah, before you even talk to a lawyer. In fact, that’s a really great place for you to start. can come to hellodivorce.com, get a basic understanding of what the state laws are, how the state looks at your finances, and then you can build from there.

The people who end up with the best outcomes aren’t the ones who avoid conflict. They’re the ones who stay informed and stay grounded and give themselves a lot of grace.

Devon: And really deal with things head on.

Erin: Yes, yeah, yeah, even when they don’t want to. But that doesn’t mean you can’t say, today is not a good day for me. I am not going to deal with a divorce today. That’s okay.

Devon: Got it. Great. And what’s the dirty secret you want listeners to walk away remembering about amicable divorce?

Erin: I want people to remember that it doesn’t mean easy. It means intentional. And it’s still going to be emotional. It’s still going to be messy. There are still going to be moments that test your patience. But with the right process and support, for most people, amicable, meaning an out of court divorce is possible and it is worth it because it is going to protect the most valuable things you have left, your privacy, your sanity, your savings and your ability to co-parent.

Devon: Gotcha. Will you tell us about HelloDivorce.com? Give us an overview of your business, who it’s for. I mean, you guys have been very successful, had a lot of attention. Who’s it for and what is Hello Divorce?

Erin: Hello Divorce is a platform that automates the legal and financial logistics associated with divorce and brings in experts as needed. So you may need a lawyer, you may need a mediator to help you resolve conflict. You may have questions about whether or not you qualify to refinance and keep your home. And if so, if you can afford to do that, then you want a real estate expert. Or you may just kind of be struggling with what’s my exit plan? How do I leave and file for divorce in a way that’s going to set myself and my kids best up for our next chapter, but not burn it all down? And in that scenario, you might want to meet with a divorce coach. So the goal is to bring you everything that you could possibly need regardless of where you are in your divorce, whether you are in the research phase, whether you’re ready to get started, or whether it’s post divorce and you’re trying to figure out what are the loose ends I still need to tie up.

Our goal is to bring all of that together in one platform and we are available in all 50 states.

Devon: All 50 states. Awesome. Well, Erin, thank you so much for your wisdom, your insights, your experience. It’s really been great getting to know you and your business and all that you’ve learned. Thank you.

Erin: Thank you!

The DivorceLawyer.com Podcast with Devon Rifkin, President and CEO – DivorceLawyer.com, Featuring Erin Levine, Founder and CEO – Hello Divorce

Contact Information – Find Erin Levine and Hello Divorce online here, HelloDivorce.com or follow Hello Divorce on Instagram here: Instagram.com/hellodivorce.