Managing Divorce Like a Business Plan with Author Andy Heller

OVERVIEW

In this episode of the DivorceLawyer.com podcast, Rob Roseman interviews Andy Heller, a businessman and author of ‘Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family.’ They discuss the emotional challenges of divorce, the importance of self-care, and strategies for effective communication with an ex. Andy shares insights from his own divorce experience and emphasizes the need for a supportive network and role models. The conversation provides practical tips for navigating the divorce process with compassion and clarity.

HIGHLIGHTS

• Divorce is a marathon, not a sprint.
• Self-care is essential for effective parenting.
• Communicate strategically with your ex to minimize conflict.
• Focus on key goals and compromise on minor details.
• Seek support from professionals and role models.
• It’s okay to feel bad during a tough time.
• Ask open-ended questions to empower your ex.
• Find a support system to avoid isolation.
• Emotional health impacts parenting effectiveness.
• Divorce can be managed with the right strategies.

TRANSCRIPT

Rob: Welcome to the DivorceLawyer.com podcast. Today we are lucky to be joined by Andy Heller. Andy is a California based businessman and author of the book, Take the High Road, Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family. You can get it now on Amazon. Andy, thanks for being here today.

Andy: Thanks for having me excited excited to join the podcast.

Rob: Yes, always good to talk to other guys that have gone through divorce too. So it’s refreshing. It seems like it’s a female dominated divorce world is what I find.

Andy: Yes, but typically it takes two to tango, so…

Rob: Exactly. So Andy, you’re a businessman, not a therapist. Why? What led you to write a book about divorce?

Andy: I’ll try to give you my story in like two minutes so we can leave time for questions, Rob. So I’m a successful businessman. I’ve co-authored two real estate investing books. I run my own international freight forwarding company and I had a challenge in divorce and everybody has a different coping mechanism when they have stress. With me, I take notes and I don’t sleep a lot and I read. So I read a lot of other books on divorce as I went through my own drama.

I’m writing notes and all and a couple years into my own divorce, something happened and I, something happened with my ex and I’m like, you know what, I’m, I know how I’m going to deal with this, but I actually had a therapist and I’m a pretty together guy, Rob, but I found a therapist who did a lot of work with divorce, man. It was, it was just helpful to have a sound board.

So before I made my decision on this issue, went to, I said, I’m gonna talk to her about it. I went, I said, this is what happened, but don’t worry, I thought it through, and this is what I’m gonna do. And just a little bit about me, I’m a very compromise-oriented guy, I wasn’t out to hurt my ex or anything. And she said, well, Andy, it’s really great you thought it through, blah, blah, blah, blah. She went into all the therapy speak, and then she said, but you’re not gonna do what you intend, you’re gonna do the opposite. I’m like, but, but, but. And as soon as I shut my mouth and I let her talk,

What she said made a lot of sense. And she said, if you do what I am suggesting within a year, your situation is going to improve. So I took her suggestion and she was wrong. It took three months. And what happened, I looked at my notes. talked about, I thought about what happened that session. And I recognize even though I’m a pretty together guy, I realized the degree to which I was emotionally compromised and not making good decisions.

And then I looked at my notes. I thought about all these other books I read and I saw, you know what? I’ve got an outline here for a great book because all these books that I read, there’s really a gap in a divorce book space and I can fill this gap. So what I mean by that, you said, like in the introduction, I’m not an attorney, I’m not a therapist. All of these books tend to be, very specific and coming from a certain vantage point. The divorce attorney, like how to pick a good attorney. A therapist, how to speak to your kids when they’re getting divorced. What’s the right relationship with the ex? Now, most people are not like me, Rob. They don’t have time to read dozens of books. They might read one or two. So what I did, I started a seven year project of interview and field experts, because I’m not an expert.

But I interviewed attorneys, interviewed co-parenting counselors, I interviewed therapists, I interviewed children therapists, I interviewed couples who had toxic divorces but are landed in good co-parenting places. And so my book is organized like a business plan. And it’s unisex is valuable for women as is for men. And it’s about how to manage and get through a divorce with your head on straight.

Lead a good life going forward, have the right relationship with your ex, and most importantly, co-parent with your kids correctly. And yeah, so I’m really humbled by the reviews and the feedback. And I don’t mean to be corny, but this isn’t my money-making path. I’ve got a successful business. This is kind of a payback to everybody who helped me out. And yeah, so excited to be here.

Rob: Oh, it’s awesome. I find it very relatable because like you, I’m not a coach. I’m not a lawyer. I’m not an expert. But I found just going through it, especially as a guy, it seems like there wasn’t a lot of information or it wasn’t like, it was kind of counterintuitive. Like you’re saying the things like you’re emotionally feeling are different than I like how you even frame it as like a business plan. Like, talk a little bit about like, what’s an example of maybe how you emotionally would naturally want to go through something and then how you reframed it in the book and using the experts as a business plan and like the benefits of that.

Andy: Sure. So I know that a lot of the audience are attorneys and people seek an attorney. So let me speak to that part of the book where it talks about how to be, I think the right words I’ll use is how to present yourself as an easy to work with client to an attorney, which will also in turn help you minimize your expenses.

And the good attorneys will say this is exactly what they need to do. So during a divorce, particularly in the early months and years, that’s when we human beings are at our worst. So we’re not operating really effectively. We’re very hurt in many cases. So part of the book talks about when you A, how to select an attorney, B, what is the right divorce?

Strategy do you want to do like a kitchen table divorce? Is it gonna be a litigate divorce collaborative divorce? But important very important Part of the book talks about the need we divorce these have when we go to an attorney to be very clear with what we say to the attorney and give the attorney one to maximum three of your key goals and compromise elsewhere

So if I had to do it over again, Rob, I would have picked a different title because the title, Take the High Road implies you’re compromising everywhere. That’s actually not the case. It’s more about focusing on the big picture, not on who gets the kitchen plates. All right. So compromise on the minor details and enable and empower your attorney with clear direction what’s important to you.

By forcing yourself to give the attorney two things, only two things that are absolute key objectives, it’s going to help your attorney compromise on the dozen things that are not important and help you achieve the two or three things that are really are important. So I guess we could call this proper management of your attorney, your legal structure and so many divorces waste tens of thousands of dollars because they’re not able to give their attorneys the right guidelines. So that’s an example, forcing yourself when you’re emotionally off to be very focused in your direction with your attorney.

Rob: Makes a lot of sense too, because I think everybody’s biggest complaint about divorces is they take forever, they cost so much. And a lot of it is because we just hand the keys to the attorney and they say, figure this out, I don’t want to deal with it. And that sounds like sounds like you’re saying, you need to take ownership, you need to, you know, rely on your attorney as the expert, but you need to lead this and find out what are the most important things. And then alongside that, what are the things you are willing to let go of. And I think a lot of us, easy to say from hindsight, when it’s the emotional fog that you’re in, that part of your brain tends to tends to shut off. 

Andy: Yeah, I mean, I exactly. another great example, a great tip there is, okay, if you have limited funds, all right, and you’re afraid of those being one of those divorces that takes years, give a quick resolution bonus. All right, so, all right.

I’ll give more custodial time. I’ll give a bit more money if we can finish in a month and wrap it up and call it a day. Okay, that’s a win-win and attorneys will like that. They can close the book on your divorce and you guys can be a reference for the attorney getting a resolution done really quickly. mean, attorneys love to have a client who gives them clear direction and where they can close the file quickly. And good attorneys will approach that as a win-win.

Rob: Right, absolutely. What would you say to people, you know, they’re going through it, it’s such an emotionally charged thing, you can only understand it, if you’ve gone through it, where maybe there was cheating, maybe there’s vindictiveness, maybe you want to be agreeable, but your ex doesn’t. How do you any guidance you have on like, while you’re holding those feelings, to also have compassion and empathy, like, how do you hold those two things at once when you’re going through it?

Andy: Well, let me first acknowledge what you’ve said. It’s really, really difficult. It’s tough to have compassion when you’re really, in many cases, you’re hurt or you’re upset. The advice I’m gonna give everybody is gonna be, it’s really good advice. It may not seem like the ideal advice for this.

What I talk about in the book is the need to have a vision and a role model, a vision for what you want your life to look like in a couple of years and a role model. I talk in my book about a guy named Hans and Hans was an entrepreneur like me. And when I met with him, I mean his life, I recall meeting with him for business and he couldn’t have a sentence straight Rob.

Because his wife had fallen in love or thought she was in love with an 18 year old aerobics instructor. And you can imagine, I mean, not only was his life crumbling, he was a bit embarrassed. It was a really bad time. And I saw him at his worst. Five years later, he had a wonderful girlfriend. He was getting along well with his wife, ex-wife, sorry. His kids were being raised effectively in two households. I never would have predicted that five years ago. So it’s very important for a divorcee to have color role model, call it just somebody, the picture of somebody who went through the challenges you’re going through, and this is a man or a woman, and he or she has landed in a place that’s healthy. And that will help you when you’re at your worst.

Because this person you know had a life that was very similar to you five years earlier, but look where they are now. And that can help you to be kinder and compassion because you know that life will look differently down the road.

Rob: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. say how important it is, especially for guys, I think to find somebody that has been through it. Hopefully, you know, and you’ll find a lot of people that are very bitter. But if you can find somebody with a healthier post divorce life, because it is I always say it gets harder before it gets easier. And like, I sometimes think that like, forcing this expectation of like, I should be happier now. I’m not dealing with that or like, my family and friends or say, you weren’t meant to be together anyways, or you’ll find somebody else. Sometimes that can break your brain. So giving yourself some grace for like, it’s just a really hard time right now or like this year is just, I’m going to write it off to it’s going to be a mess, but in two, three years, I’m going to get there. So I think like that’s really tough, like mental thing where you’re like holding that it’s hard right now and it’s going to be better in the future. But you just can’t skip to where Hans was five years later.

Andy: Yeah, I want to speak to two things you mentioned because I do talk about both of them in the book. Unfortunately, my gender, we tend to hold more things in. Women tend to be far more in touch with their feelings. I’m being kind of generalized in here. Women tend to be more inclined to seek help than a man. So I do believe it’s healthy to let yourself feel like crap because it is a tough time. But because of that, don’t do this on an island. Get yourself the right sound and boards. And I’m a massive believer in personal therapy. And when I had a very, very toxic divorce and we had a co-parent counselor and she could see that both of us were struggling. And she said,

I highly recommend that you both find individual counselors, therapists to get you through this. And I said, look, I’m open to it. I’m a pretty grounded guy, but I want somebody specifically who’s worked with divorced men. So, and that person was really helpful. So to the first point, absolutely. It’s okay to feel bad, but don’t get off that island and get the right support system.

And this is not a friend, okay? This is a trained professional to guide you, because it’s going to be a rough patch, okay? The second point, you talked about people giving advice. When you announce you’re getting divorced, everybody and their brother are going to come up with advice, family, friends, coworkers, all with the best intention, like what you said. You weren’t intended to be together in the first place.

That’s not helpful, okay? So this is gonna be a bit, go against what your tendency is. Your tendency will be to talk to many. Don’t. Find the Hans in your life, or the Hans Sol or the Hans, all right? Find somebody who reminds you of you.

Have a challenge and divorce and he or she has landed in a healthy place. Their kids are being raised well, their co-parenting well, all right? And they’ve moved on. Not necessarily, it doesn’t mean they have to have a new partner, but they’ve moved on to a point where they are healthy. That person is your sounding board. Everybody else, you’re like, you know what? It’s better for me.

If we just don’t talk about the drama, I don’t want to talk about my ex, so whatever. Let’s just be friends and let’s just be family and hang out. And that’s going to also be healthier for you because it’s going to keep you from talking about your drama to constantly to so many different people. So we talk about, I talk about in the book, the need to find that right sound and board as well as having the right professional support and limit the conversations with everybody else.

Rob: Super helpful and very, it’s also like it sounds obvious, but when you’re going through it, I think like people do want to help, but they don’t know how to, we do want to vent and dump, but sometimes we don’t want their advice, you know, so even something as simple as like, Hey, I just need to bitch and moan for five minutes. I really don’t even want advice, but if you could listen to it, like things that we might expect people to understand, I feel like as guys, we need to articulate and say, this is what I need. This is what I don’t need. And it takes like, you know, it takes getting punched in the face a few times till you realize that and say like, I feel worse now after this conversation. So very helpful tips. And I’d also say like, you’re not going to meet that Hans the first time I remember going out for I think guys, I tended to date a lot right away because I wanted the connection. And I’ve actually found it harder to find guys to relate to, which is probably what I needed more.

But like, you will also come across a lot of, it sounds bad to say, but toxic divorce people. And I would be like, oh, I’m in a more positive state than them. So maybe while they want to go, they’re the only one that will go have a beer with me, they’re not helping me either. it’s like, it’s almost like dating where you’re like, you’re a new person in my life. I mean, look, for when you’re married, you probably have the same friends for 25 years. And like all of sudden now you’re recreating. So, these are really helpful things that are like not obvious at first and you got to like, you know, step on some landmines, but really helpful to hear of like how to cultivate a healthier, you know, connections with people.

Andy: Yeah, one of the four sections in my book deals with basically, I’m going to use the words self-care, things that you can do to be kind to yourself that can make the path easier for yourself. Many of us like, well, it’s all about my kids. It’s all about my kids. It is, but this is a very big, but the less healthy you are, the more ineffective you are as a parent. So it’s symbiotic.

It’s absolutely symbiotic. A better place you can put yourself in, the more capable you will be as a mother or as a father. it is focusing on self-care is gonna also be a massive gift for your children.

Rob: Totally. And that’s something I know as parents, especially we put ourselves last and it’s like a, it’s a weird thing where like, I can’t even say in my day to day life, it’s like, I’ve got three kids I’m on as a parent and you’re more on because you’re a hundred, even if it’s half the time, you’re a hundred percent parent. And then all of sudden it falls on you and you might not have the healthiest thing. So, so right. That’s self care.

Even if it is like dad needs to go take a walk around the block for 10 minutes, things that you wouldn’t have needed to do maybe in your marriage. I really, you know, simple, not easy, but that self care is like, is so important for somebody, especially in that first year or two after divorce. Let’s end on one thing, somebody listening right now, they’re stuck in the middle of a really messy divorce. What is like, is there one move or one step that they could take to maybe put them on a better path when they’re just, they feel like they’re drowning in it. What’s one tip you would say to somebody going through that?

Andy: One tip, well everybody’s situation can be so different. One thing I would say to everybody is divorce is a marathon, not a sprint. Okay. So sometimes it does take a bit longer, unfortunately. All right. And also sometimes we really can’t communicate with our ex, which that makes it really, really, really difficult.

So if you’re in a place where, and I’m assuming that stuck part means you’re kind of in the middle of a lot of legal crap, okay? If you still have the line of communication with your ex, and if you don’t, do this through the attorneys. Ask an open-ended question, okay? Something that is also not critical of your ex. If you criticize her or him, the result is going to be defensive. So something like this, hey, Rob, you and I are breaking up, all right? And we have minor communication, mainly through attorneys. I send you a nicey nice email, say, hey, Rob, we can’t be enjoying those last few months. I’m sure you’re as stressed as I am. What can we do together?

We were married for a while. We were raising these amazing kids. What can we do to bring this to a conclusion in the next 30 to 60 days so that we can both move on with our lives? It’s not critical. It’s extremely honest. It’s an open-ended question. And you’re empowering your ex to kind of vent and say, come up with a solution.

One of the things I talk about in the book is there is a time in divorce where whatever comes out of your mouth, in many divorces, whatever comes out of your mouth, your ex is gonna say, object to. So therefore, stop offering the suggestions. Ask open-ended questions. Define the problem. And this is actually a business skill brought into divorce. Define the problem and go to your ex and say, we’re both having this problem. What do you suggest? Very often your partner’s suggestion will be somewhat close to what you want anyhow. And actually in the book, there’s a whole chapter about how to take that first answer that comes out of his or her mouth and massage that closer to what you want to have your solution anyhow. So that’s one, if you’re, if you are stuck, take an action with your ex to try to get unstuck, it won’t always work Rob. And sometimes people just love the conflict. And again, there’s chapters in the book that deal with that, but most people would like to see that end and move on. Okay? So anyhow, that’s one suggestion I hope in some cases that can help a lot of our listeners.

Rob: I love that. And I love how you it’s very thoughtful the way you constructed the question you started with a little empathy, like we are not having fun. This must be brutal for you. I know it’s, you know, you’re starting with empathy, and then you’re ending with like, and do you have a thought like giving empowering them and it’s especially when we’re going through divorce, it’s like the exact opposite how we’re emotionally want to speak where we’re criticizing. So that is super helpful just being a little more thoughtful, strategic even, like a business, in how you’re communicating, Awesome.

Andy: It’s strategic. Yeah. And I’ll finish with, that chapter that deals with that. We go a lot deeper and this is, these are business skills brought into divorce communication. So let’s say your answer. There’s 10 % of that, that I like and 90 % that, Rob is back to his old tricks. Okay. So my answer to your answer, like, I really love this focusing on the 10 % we’re aligned with.

I still think we have a, a challenge. What do you think about this? Not even talking about the part that was in there, just, that was all pissy. And then what tends to happen guys is that 10 % that you’re aligned with expands a bit and ends somewhere between 40 and a hundred percent. You say, thank you so much, Rob. We are in alignment. Are you okay that we send this to the attorneys? Let’s wrap this up.

And you can move on with your life and I can move on with mine. But it’s very often not a one email or one text thing or a one conversation. You got to go, you got to play ping pong three or four times. And then you focus only on the parts of the response that can be a foundation for an agreement. Ignore everything else. And you keep putting it to your ex to expand on that 10%. And this is a business skill guys that is so effective in divorce communications. That’s why it’s an entire chapter in the book.

Rob: love that. I love that you like take this emotionally charged thing and it really is. mean, every lawyer says treat it like a business, but like we can hear that. like hearing it from somebody that’s been through it, who is a businessman? I think it’s a really unique angle. Andy, let people know where they can pick up the book.

Andy: Sure, everybody, go to amazon.com and just write Andy Heller, H-E-L-L-E-R, take the high road, the book will pop up and you can reach out to me. Again, this is not my business, Rob. I have other businesses. I wrote this book because I saw a gap I could fill. I’ve been very humbled by the reviews.

I have over 100 five-star reviews. But I want to get the book in the hands of many people so it can be impactful and help them because a lot of people help me. So yeah, just go to Amazon, everybody, and do a search for it and the book will pop up.

Rob: Awesome. Very relatable, Andy. Thank you so much for being on the DivorceLawyer.com podcast.

Andy: Thanks for having me, Rob.

The DivorceLawyer.com Podcast with Rob Roseman, Featuring Andy Heller, a businessman and author of ‘Take the High Road: Divorce with Compassion for Yourself and Your Family.’

Contact Information – Find Andy’s book on Amazon here, Amazon Link to Andy’s Book, or on his book’s Facebook page, Facebook.com/takethehighroadbook.